MR. RUSSERT: There's a new movie, as we all well know, "Fahrenheit 9/11" by Michael Moore, which is playing to packed houses. Gwen, you've seen the movie. What's your sense?
MS. IFILL: You know, I look at this movie as a journalist, and as a journalist I have this affection for facts and accuracy. And even though there are facts in this movie, on whole it's not accurate. Michael Moore is guilty of the same thing that he and a lot of Democrats say that the Republicans are guilty of, especially on the Iraq-9/11 connection, and that's--I call it guilt by juxtaposition. You put several facts out there then and say to the viewer, "How could this not be true?"
The president, according to Democrats, did that with 9/11. He said, "Well, there was terrorism on 9/11. There's terrorism in Afghanistan. And we know that Saddam Hussein consorted with terrorists, and you make the conclusion." Michael Moore is doing the same thing. He's saying, "Well, look at the president and the Saudis. They were all friendly." You see a lot of pictures of him shaking hands with people wearing turbans. You raise mysterious questions about that, never completely answer them, and then
leave with a lot of, I think, fairly cheap shots at this administration, which makes it a movie, but it doesn't make it fact.
MR. BROWNSTEIN: I have a more complicated view of it, I think. I don't think you go to Michael Moore for fair and balanced any more than you go to the other people who use that slogan for fair and balanced. As--it's over the top in many respects. The allegations about the Saudi flights, Dick Clark and the 9-11 Commission, for example, who have not been apologists for President Bush, reached very different conclusions. But I think the movie is much more successful in telling human stories than political stories. And the second half of the movie, when he focuses on the impact, the cost of the war in Iraq, both in Iraq and in the U.S., although there are quibbles--you can have quarrels with him on that front as well--the theater that I was in, you could really hear a pin drop for the second half of the movie. I could barely hear people breathing. And I think it really is no crime to remind people every so often that war is hell. And that's what this movie does very effectively when it focuses on the human story rather than the political story, which I agree is a bit overwrought at times.
MR. RUSSERT: A conservative group has filed an action with the Federal Election Commission saying the ads for the movie are, in effect, political ads against George Bush and should not be allowed. A well-known producer said to me yesterday, "Maybe this is the wave of the future."
MR. BROWNSTEIN: Yeah.
MR. RUSSERT: Michael Moore will make a movie, conservatives will make a movie, and they'll be able to put forward a--push a political viewpoint in the theater houses.
MS. IFILL: And guess what? Moviegoers are smart enough to decide what it is they believe. The thing about the fair and balanced thing--I mean, the truth--people really can decide if you give them the facts. And the interesting thing about this book--and you're right, pin drop, very effective story about a woman who lost her son is part of this movie. But you know what? The truth is, people who made up their minds and don't like President Bush are going to come away still not liking President Bush. People who
made up their minds and like President Bush think this movie is terrible--I mean, lawsuits aside. And people in the middle, I don't know if this is going to change any minds.
MR. BROWNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. It feels like the debate between the parties is getting so intense that it's spilling over the banks that we've cut out for it.
MS. IFILL: Yeah.
MR. BROWNSTEIN: I mean, traditionally they've been arguing, first in print and daily and weekly newspapers, cable TV and talk radio, Sunday shows like this--now look at the best-seller list. Both sides, really, starting under Clinton--Republican and conservatives systematically reaching an audience with anti-Clinton books. We've seen in the late '90s people thought it was only conservatives' books, but there's obviously an audience for liberal books...
MS. IFILL: Right.
MR. BROWNSTEIN: ...as well; now the movies. There will be a documentary about John Kerry, as well, in addition to this. So there is clearly sort of a broadening of this argument out into pop culture. And the striking thing, I think--Gwen is right--is that, you know, if you look at how divided this electorate is--and that's one reason why John Kerry and George Bush are so close together--the last 5 or 6 or 7 percent, the ones who will probably decide this, are the ones who are probably least likely to be affected by any of this. But nonetheless, I think it's reflective, like the enormous amounts of money the candidates have raised, there's a lot of passion out there, Tim, and there's a big audience for political argument at this point in our history.
MR. RUSSERT: My sense is we'll stop using the term documentary because Michael Moore, in his own words, is a provocateur, a propagandist, a pamphleteer, whatever. They exist on the left and they exist on the right.
MS. IFILL: Well, as David Brooks pointed out in The New York Times yesterday, in Europe, Michael Moore goes about very widely bashing America and bashing Americans as being stupid and not knowing how to put one foot in front of the other and he's received like a conquering hero. They love this. They want to hear this. Now, that's fine. They think he's a documentarian. They think he is bringing them facts. Now, they don't vote in American elections, but there is a wider question to be raised about the impact of Americans who take that abroad in a time of war.
MR. BROWNSTEIN: And the Bush campaign wants to make the Kerry campaign answer for some of these charges. I mean, they've begun to talk about a coalition of the wild-eyed, trying to identify and link John Kerry to some of the more extreme critiques from elements of the Democratic Party and it can be a problem as it was for Wes Clark during the primaries when we were in New Hampshire talking about this when Michael Moore accused President Bush of desertion. So, you know, this is a powerful statement. It's going to reach a portion of the public, but it may also cause problems with others.
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MS. IFILL: You know, I look at this movie as a journalist, and as a journalist I have this affection for facts and accuracy. And even though there are facts in this movie, on whole it's not accurate. Michael Moore is guilty of the same thing that he and a lot of Democrats say that the Republicans are guilty of, especially on the Iraq-9/11 connection, and that's--I call it guilt by juxtaposition. You put several facts out there then and say to the viewer, "How could this not be true?"
The president, according to Democrats, did that with 9/11. He said, "Well, there was terrorism on 9/11. There's terrorism in Afghanistan. And we know that Saddam Hussein consorted with terrorists, and you make the conclusion." Michael Moore is doing the same thing. He's saying, "Well, look at the president and the Saudis. They were all friendly." You see a lot of pictures of him shaking hands with people wearing turbans. You raise mysterious questions about that, never completely answer them, and then
leave with a lot of, I think, fairly cheap shots at this administration, which makes it a movie, but it doesn't make it fact.
MR. BROWNSTEIN: I have a more complicated view of it, I think. I don't think you go to Michael Moore for fair and balanced any more than you go to the other people who use that slogan for fair and balanced. As--it's over the top in many respects. The allegations about the Saudi flights, Dick Clark and the 9-11 Commission, for example, who have not been apologists for President Bush, reached very different conclusions. But I think the movie is much more successful in telling human stories than political stories. And the second half of the movie, when he focuses on the impact, the cost of the war in Iraq, both in Iraq and in the U.S., although there are quibbles--you can have quarrels with him on that front as well--the theater that I was in, you could really hear a pin drop for the second half of the movie. I could barely hear people breathing. And I think it really is no crime to remind people every so often that war is hell. And that's what this movie does very effectively when it focuses on the human story rather than the political story, which I agree is a bit overwrought at times.
MR. RUSSERT: A conservative group has filed an action with the Federal Election Commission saying the ads for the movie are, in effect, political ads against George Bush and should not be allowed. A well-known producer said to me yesterday, "Maybe this is the wave of the future."
MR. BROWNSTEIN: Yeah.
MR. RUSSERT: Michael Moore will make a movie, conservatives will make a movie, and they'll be able to put forward a--push a political viewpoint in the theater houses.
MS. IFILL: And guess what? Moviegoers are smart enough to decide what it is they believe. The thing about the fair and balanced thing--I mean, the truth--people really can decide if you give them the facts. And the interesting thing about this book--and you're right, pin drop, very effective story about a woman who lost her son is part of this movie. But you know what? The truth is, people who made up their minds and don't like President Bush are going to come away still not liking President Bush. People who
made up their minds and like President Bush think this movie is terrible--I mean, lawsuits aside. And people in the middle, I don't know if this is going to change any minds.
MR. BROWNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. It feels like the debate between the parties is getting so intense that it's spilling over the banks that we've cut out for it.
MS. IFILL: Yeah.
MR. BROWNSTEIN: I mean, traditionally they've been arguing, first in print and daily and weekly newspapers, cable TV and talk radio, Sunday shows like this--now look at the best-seller list. Both sides, really, starting under Clinton--Republican and conservatives systematically reaching an audience with anti-Clinton books. We've seen in the late '90s people thought it was only conservatives' books, but there's obviously an audience for liberal books...
MS. IFILL: Right.
MR. BROWNSTEIN: ...as well; now the movies. There will be a documentary about John Kerry, as well, in addition to this. So there is clearly sort of a broadening of this argument out into pop culture. And the striking thing, I think--Gwen is right--is that, you know, if you look at how divided this electorate is--and that's one reason why John Kerry and George Bush are so close together--the last 5 or 6 or 7 percent, the ones who will probably decide this, are the ones who are probably least likely to be affected by any of this. But nonetheless, I think it's reflective, like the enormous amounts of money the candidates have raised, there's a lot of passion out there, Tim, and there's a big audience for political argument at this point in our history.
MR. RUSSERT: My sense is we'll stop using the term documentary because Michael Moore, in his own words, is a provocateur, a propagandist, a pamphleteer, whatever. They exist on the left and they exist on the right.
MS. IFILL: Well, as David Brooks pointed out in The New York Times yesterday, in Europe, Michael Moore goes about very widely bashing America and bashing Americans as being stupid and not knowing how to put one foot in front of the other and he's received like a conquering hero. They love this. They want to hear this. Now, that's fine. They think he's a documentarian. They think he is bringing them facts. Now, they don't vote in American elections, but there is a wider question to be raised about the impact of Americans who take that abroad in a time of war.
MR. BROWNSTEIN: And the Bush campaign wants to make the Kerry campaign answer for some of these charges. I mean, they've begun to talk about a coalition of the wild-eyed, trying to identify and link John Kerry to some of the more extreme critiques from elements of the Democratic Party and it can be a problem as it was for Wes Clark during the primaries when we were in New Hampshire talking about this when Michael Moore accused President Bush of desertion. So, you know, this is a powerful statement. It's going to reach a portion of the public, but it may also cause problems with others.
- dave 6-29-2004 5:32 pm