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In this four-minute outtake that didn’t make it into the final version of the documentary film Helvetica, designer Massimo Vignelli talks about his 1972 map of the New York subway system — which, you may recall, encountered stout opposition. Vignelli argues that, far from being too abstract, as the map’s detractors argued, his map wasn’t abstract enough: he should have left out the geographical references to waterways and parks, he thinks, leaving a blank background instead.

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