Tom Moody, Chris Ashley, jimpunk and abe linkoln were asked to participate as guest artist-bloggers on an academic listserv called empyre. The discussion quickly devolved into a catty battle about lists versus blogs. You can read the empyre debate (described by Bill as the "smouldering wreckage of a panel discussion") here, and the consequent 70-comment thread on Tom Moody's blog here. Very fractious.
Each has a very different raison d'être. Lists are for people with a specific interest to focus discussion on that area of expertise. Technical terms and advanced positions are a-okay, and it is refreshing for participants to assume a certain level of education in the topic area. Listservs are perceived to be more democratic than blogs, as the content is generated by multiple participants. Blogs on the other hand are written with the whole world as a potential, invisible readership. Posts tend to be in plain language, and threads are moderated by the blogger with an eye for the general, uinitiated reader. Blogs also have fewer technical barriers to participation. You don't need a client software, and you don't need to 'join'.
Personally, I am increasingly bugged and put off by the one-voice heirarchy of my own blog. But I like the default attention to audience, and I like playing a small role in the self-organising blogosphere. I also find the general level of respect for other posters/readers is higher here that it is on the listserv I belong to, where discussion frequently devolves into myopic misunderstandings, personal rants, and mean-spirited quips. The upside of the list is that, along with the crabbiness, there's wacks of informed people dropping good info into the pot.
Does anyone know of any successful hybrid examples where bloggers and lists have come together to share content (as opposed to meta-babble about the mode of delivery)?
what about the wiki phenomenon? That what you're asking for?
Are you saying wikis are better than lists? Just kidding. That's a good example of newer technologies being used in a constructive way. Also, blogs can have distributed authorship: dailyKos has a community of diarists who periodically share "front page" status. [some of this post omitted--redundant complaining]
I recently spent a day talking to people in a MUD. The only people left were the original 12 or so who started it. They couldn't belive a new person had found them and they all wanted to talk to me. Like walking into a prison by accident. there were all these crazy commands to learn for really simple stuff. Emoticons seemed relevant.
Odd how it felt so outdated, like getting a telegraph even though it was really just a few years ago this was cutting edge.
I've seen blogs that send out mail (e.g. this one). I've seen listservs that are archived on web pages. But I've never seen a true blend. Nor would I even want to try to write a requirements document for such an elephino.
I moved three emypyre-related comments here to my page (the comment thread you linked to above). Sorry for the spillover. It's over--I've been released. The remaining smoldering wreckage can be viewed on my page now.
phew.
My two bits:
When you say "I am increasingly bugged and put off by the one-voice heirarchy of my own blog" it's definitely the form of the blog itself, especially one which has more open-ended and observational posts, rather than a lack interest.
I'm mostly on the outside looking in when it comes to the Toronto visual arts community, being newish to town, having a fulltime office job and only getting to galleries on weekends. I check out the things you post on your blog, things I wouldn't have known about otherwise, so thanks. In fact, I think blogs such as yours (ie. run by individuals) are more important to sustaining a healthy arts community than anything the galleries or art schools could provide.
Bloggers are often better than newspaper columnists: newspapers are less inclined to give much space to visual arts and often don't pick the best people to write about it. Bloggers are usually highly motivated and community-orientated. The better they are, it's usually because their more accessible to outsiders.
What's missing is maybe a listserve of some sort (maybe I haven't seen it?), something like discussions about "the latest show at Mercer Union: good or bad" or something. It might sound kind of flaky, but it's exactly the kind of debate or discussion that most arts communities sorely lack. The pseudo-intellectual muddle of most artist statements surely attests to the lack of any real conversation going on out there.
I'm still trying to de-program myself from my fine arts training, asking myself square 1 questions like "Why is Piet Mondrian considered important? Do I even like Picasso?" These questions don't come from thin air on a listserve, they usually happen when I'm out in a local gallery in relation to something new. Most people are self-conscious yammering on about Mondrian in a gallery or coffee house, which is almost why I feel like the safety of blogs are a godsend to the arts community. I just wish there were more to them.
~M
That's encouraging, Mike. In case you don't know about Simpleposie, here's the link. It's a blog, not a list, but an excellent place for open-ended art-musing and questions with a Toronto focus (though not exclusively local, by any means).
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Tom Moody, Chris Ashley, jimpunk and abe linkoln were asked to participate as guest artist-bloggers on an academic listserv called empyre. The discussion quickly devolved into a catty battle about lists versus blogs. You can read the empyre debate (described by Bill as the "smouldering wreckage of a panel discussion") here, and the consequent 70-comment thread on Tom Moody's blog here. Very fractious.
Each has a very different raison d'être. Lists are for people with a specific interest to focus discussion on that area of expertise. Technical terms and advanced positions are a-okay, and it is refreshing for participants to assume a certain level of education in the topic area. Listservs are perceived to be more democratic than blogs, as the content is generated by multiple participants. Blogs on the other hand are written with the whole world as a potential, invisible readership. Posts tend to be in plain language, and threads are moderated by the blogger with an eye for the general, uinitiated reader. Blogs also have fewer technical barriers to participation. You don't need a client software, and you don't need to 'join'.
Personally, I am increasingly bugged and put off by the one-voice heirarchy of my own blog. But I like the default attention to audience, and I like playing a small role in the self-organising blogosphere. I also find the general level of respect for other posters/readers is higher here that it is on the listserv I belong to, where discussion frequently devolves into myopic misunderstandings, personal rants, and mean-spirited quips. The upside of the list is that, along with the crabbiness, there's wacks of informed people dropping good info into the pot.
Does anyone know of any successful hybrid examples where bloggers and lists have come together to share content (as opposed to meta-babble about the mode of delivery)?
- sally mckay 6-15-2005 10:52 pm
what about the wiki phenomenon? That what you're asking for?
- joester 6-15-2005 11:46 pm
Are you saying wikis are better than lists? Just kidding. That's a good example of newer technologies being used in a constructive way. Also, blogs can have distributed authorship: dailyKos has a community of diarists who periodically share "front page" status. [some of this post omitted--redundant complaining]
- tom moody 6-16-2005 12:29 am
I recently spent a day talking to people in a MUD. The only people left were the original 12 or so who started it. They couldn't belive a new person had found them and they all wanted to talk to me. Like walking into a prison by accident. there were all these crazy commands to learn for really simple stuff. Emoticons seemed relevant.
Odd how it felt so outdated, like getting a telegraph even though it was really just a few years ago this was cutting edge.
- joester 6-16-2005 12:37 am
I've seen blogs that send out mail (e.g. this one). I've seen listservs that are archived on web pages. But I've never seen a true blend. Nor would I even want to try to write a requirements document for such an elephino.
- mark 6-16-2005 3:43 am
I moved three emypyre-related comments here to my page (the comment thread you linked to above). Sorry for the spillover. It's over--I've been released. The remaining smoldering wreckage can be viewed on my page now.
- tom moody 6-16-2005 6:47 pm
phew.
- sally mckay 6-16-2005 7:12 pm
My two bits: When you say "I am increasingly bugged and put off by the one-voice heirarchy of my own blog" it's definitely the form of the blog itself, especially one which has more open-ended and observational posts, rather than a lack interest. I'm mostly on the outside looking in when it comes to the Toronto visual arts community, being newish to town, having a fulltime office job and only getting to galleries on weekends. I check out the things you post on your blog, things I wouldn't have known about otherwise, so thanks. In fact, I think blogs such as yours (ie. run by individuals) are more important to sustaining a healthy arts community than anything the galleries or art schools could provide. Bloggers are often better than newspaper columnists: newspapers are less inclined to give much space to visual arts and often don't pick the best people to write about it. Bloggers are usually highly motivated and community-orientated. The better they are, it's usually because their more accessible to outsiders. What's missing is maybe a listserve of some sort (maybe I haven't seen it?), something like discussions about "the latest show at Mercer Union: good or bad" or something. It might sound kind of flaky, but it's exactly the kind of debate or discussion that most arts communities sorely lack. The pseudo-intellectual muddle of most artist statements surely attests to the lack of any real conversation going on out there. I'm still trying to de-program myself from my fine arts training, asking myself square 1 questions like "Why is Piet Mondrian considered important? Do I even like Picasso?" These questions don't come from thin air on a listserve, they usually happen when I'm out in a local gallery in relation to something new. Most people are self-conscious yammering on about Mondrian in a gallery or coffee house, which is almost why I feel like the safety of blogs are a godsend to the arts community. I just wish there were more to them. ~M
- Mike W 6-17-2005 6:54 am
That's encouraging, Mike. In case you don't know about Simpleposie, here's the link. It's a blog, not a list, but an excellent place for open-ended art-musing and questions with a Toronto focus (though not exclusively local, by any means).
- sally mckay 6-17-2005 9:27 pm