BARTLETT COWDREY: When you came to New York, what were the art galleries? When, you went looking for paintings, what did you see, what was then contemporary?

CHARLES SHEELER: ...not only to see, but find one of them that would take their, foot out of the door and let me in.

BARTLETT COWDREY: I suppose Steiglitz...

CHARLES SHEELER: I never had anyone. Steiglitz was interested in a sort of semi-remote way, but I never was represented in any of his shows.

BARTLETT COWDREY: I mean in your spare time, if you wanted to see (American) paintings, what was new in your time?

CHARLES SHEELER: Well it seemed to me at that time, this couldn't be final necessarily, but living in Philadelphia, there would be super-colossal exhibitions, you know, where old masters and all the great names among collectors would have loaned pictures, and I would, if I could get the railroad fare together, and a dollar for overnight in a (New York) rooming house I would come over and spend a couple of days seeing...

BARTLETT COWDREY: What about Kraushaar and Knoedler?

CHARLES SHEELER: Of course I saw and was also a participant in the Armory Show.

BARTLETT COWDREY: 1913.

CHARLES SHEELER: And the First Independents.

BARTLETT COWDREY: 1917. Can you make a comparison between the Armory Show and the First Independents? The Armory was international, I realize, but...

CHARLES SHEELER: Yes, well it was; the eye-opener, the great eyeopener. The Independents just gave a chance to some of the local boys to...

BARTLETT COWDREY: But that was the wonderful thing.

CHARLES SHEELER: Yes, it was important, but the Armory Show gave the green light that it was all right to exhibit pictures like that.